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[SF] Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate Peace Talks - KBP Summit

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Mirxa's Slave	Posted - 2010.04.18 19:12:00 - [1] Jade... We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards.
Mirxa's Slave	Posted - 2010.04.18 19:20:00 - [2] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Jade... We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. I care nothing for the opinions of people who are too frightened to stand up and speak with their own identities. Lamentably, simply impugning the character of those who raise the issue isn't going to make it go away.
Mirxa's Slave	Posted - 2010.04.18 19:26:00 - [3] Originally by: Jade Constantine I have no idea who is raising the "issue" through your lips though. I prefer to know your "masters" affiliations to better understand the bias before replying substantively to anything you say. I find it charming that you evaluate the validity of any point based on who said it.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.18 20:22:00 - [4] Originally by: Jade Constantine Its called personal responsibility and consequence for your deeds. Many people might mistake it for bias. I notice you have continued to fail to address my point.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.18 20:57:00 - [5] Allow me to remind you: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. You could have saved both yourself and the reader a substantial ammount of time if you had discussed this initially.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.18 22:42:00 - [6] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Mirxa's Slave Allow me to remind you: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. The attempts to deny this is the case are tortuously twisted even by your own exacting standards. You could have saved both yourself and the reader a substantial ammount of time if you had discussed this initially. Who is "we"? Ah, so now we have a new excuse not to answer. Will I ever get a straight answer here? All of IGS is watching...
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.18 23:13:00 - [7] Actually, I did: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave All of IGS is watching... Come now, anyone would think you had something to hide...
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.19 20:21:00 - [8] Originally by: Jade Constantine Actually you didn't. I asked who is the "we" you are claiming to speak for. It's a shame you cant answer such a simple question without resorting to avoidance strategies like this one. I assume that you don't run Star Fraction like this, though I have to confess that I find the idea quite amusing.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.20 06:36:00 - [9] Originally by: Archbishop in fact I can only recall one occasion where she has admitted one... and she has never been questioned about it since... This was my original point: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave We would respect you a lot more if you simply admitted this peace deal was a compromise. Lets return to that: Were compromises made to secure a peace deal with Daisho?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.20 15:35:00 - [10] Originally by: Jade Constantine Its entirely evident that compromises were made I'm glad to have finally gotten an answer out of you. Sadly the level of personal abuse you have directed at me is unlikely to win you any new friends. You may care to note throughout the course of this discussion I have tried to remain civil in face of such provocation. I'm glad to see you approched the peace treaty pragmatically. Holding space in Providence is a significant paradigm shift for Star Fraction (and indeed Ushra'Khan). I do hope you can remain true to the principles which make you unique.

Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.20 17:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Jade Constantine I would have thought that obvious from the beginning of the thread. Now I am confused. I'm infering here that this states you believe you are remaining true to your principles. Yet barely a couple of posts ago you said you were making compromises. Perhaps you can explain to me how this is possible?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.20 18:31:00 - [12] To use the term debate implies you are willing to discuss thing rather than insult people. Again: Please explain how you can both be holding to your principles and compromise
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.21 21:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Mirxa's Slave To use the term debate implies you are willing to discuss thing rather than insult people. Again: Please explain how you can both be holding to your principles and compromise It's nice to get through a day without being gratuitously insulted for no apparent reason. However I was hoping for an explanation Jade: How did you reconcile Star Fraction's principles and the compromises you had to make to secure this peace deal?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.23 06:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Xina Tutor But I am sure they will adapt and make what compromises they need to survive. Actually, Jade already admitted compromises were made securing the peace deal with Daisho. I was interested in finding out how Star Fraction reconciled the compromises made with their principles. It's worrying that I haven't received an answer yet. I mean, I'm sure they're just busy with the whole running space thing. It's not like they have anything to hide, is it?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.23 14:48:00 - [15] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 23/04/2010 06:55:17 I always wonder why the same question gets asked when the answer is publically available. i know these folks can read, since they are posting. well I am making the assumption that their pod interface isn't all coloring book pictures... This a new answer avoidance strategy, although I see you are still clinging to insulting the questioner too. Clearly the original post only covers the particulars of the peace deal. It does not discuss how it meshes into the wider philosophies of Star Fraction. Again: How did Star Fraction reconcile its principles and the compromises made to secure the peace deal?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.23 15:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Jade Constantine And that choosing (ultimately) not to go to formal warfare in response to agression through the process of mature diplomacy and formal membership vote. In the natural state of diplomacy SF consider aggression from blue to be a significant bar to future relations. You do realise you just implied that Star Fraction diplomacy up until this point was not mature? Additionally: this was the only compromise? Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.23 16:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Jade Constantine No because I didn't you deceitful wretch. Clearly you do as follows: Quote: In the natural state of diplomacy SF consider aggression from blue to be a significant bar to future relations. This states that normally people that are red to you stay red. Quote: choosing (ultimately) not to go to formal warfare in response to agression through the process of mature diplomacy Here you state that it was mature of you, and rightly so I have to say, to use diplomacy to resolve a trivial difference. However, the second quote clearly contradicts the first. The normal process of Star Fraction diplomacy is not mature as it refuses to acknowledge what you yourself describe as mature diplomacy However, this is to distract from the my question. I note again you have chosen not to answer it. Let me repeat: Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.23 16:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Jade Constantine Have you stopped telling lies yet? I wasn't aware it was even possible to lie in a question. Again, not answered. Again, let me repeat: Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.24 09:36:00 - [19] Clearly the peace deal between Daisho and Star Fraction is a matter of public discussion - If not then why state the details on this summit? There are a few points that are not clear, however. I am simply asking some questions in the spirit of clarification. So once again, let me repeat: Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.24 13:11:00 - [20] Originally by: The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction's principles remain intact. So now we are being told there was no compromise? Only a few days ago we were told: Originally by: Jade Constantine Its entirely evident that compromises were made with the fact we had a vote on the issue of peace in the first place. I find this contradiction confusing. Furthermore, I still await clarifaction on the extent to which Daisho will will be adopting Freespace

Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.24 13:43:00 - [21] Originally by: ChipMo You really should have someone take a look at that Intelligence implant you know. There is something seriously wrong with your reasoning and logical abilities. Perhaps if you are so confident of your reasoning you could explain the contradiction rather than resort to a personal insult. Perhaps you could even answer the question which you have so adroitly dodged: Can you confirm you persuaded Daisho to adopt Freespace in the long term?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.24 14:18:00 - [22] Originally by: ChipMo In answer to your new question: No. Daisho do not believe in the principles of Freespace, the long term is exactly that L O N G T E R M. We will maintain good relations with Daisho and show them the advantages of FreeSpace which we hope they will adopt. They are willing to open their space to those who indulge diplomacy and this is a good step in the direction of Free Space. So, by your own admission Star Fraction only cares about opening space up for itself. Thank you for making that clear.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.24 15:46:00 - [23] Originally by: ChipMo No that is not what I said. I'm afraid it is exactly what you said: You acknowledged that no immediate attempt had been made persuade Daisho to change their rules of engagement. Clearly iit follows that the only concession Star Fraction were interested in obtaining from Daisho was the ability for Star Fraction pilots, and Star Fraction pilots only, to move freely through Daisho space. Unless you care to prove me wrong by demonstrating evidence of how you have convinved Daisho to change?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.25 13:48:00 - [24] My contention that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots is broadly correct then. You confirm it here: Originally by: The Cosmopolite So then our belief that a third-party has no right to impose particular relationships between other parties on those others, and that independence in relationships with others is vital. So then our long-held belief in freespace, that is the principle that space cannot be 'owned', and that free movement through space and the exploitation of freely-available primary resources in space should be possible for anyone who chooses, anywhere they choose. Why: you admit that you have no intention of forcing people to adopt your worldview. It follows that you simply can't expand Freespace beyond the areas you "own". At no point did I say Star Fraction were hypocrites. Clearly you aren't: You are quite open here about the internal inconsitencies in your philosophy here.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.25 18:44:00 - [25] Originally by: ChipMo No, it is not. I have made an effort to provide evidence for my contention based upon the questions you and other Star Fraction pilots have answered for me. Please provide counter evidence to support your rebuttal.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.25 23:56:00 - [26] Originally by: ChipMo No rebuttal is required Yet you attempted one earlier: Originally by: ChipMo No, it is not. And, indeed, before that: Originally by: ChipMo No that is not what I said. And before that your approach was to personally insult me Originally by: ChipMo There is something seriously wrong with your reasoning and logical abilities. I have never attempted to misconstrue your words, merely highlighted them. It is entirely up to you to defend them: Tell me why it is not the case that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.26 09:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Svenjabi Xiang Actually, it's not up to us to defend anything to you, personally or collectively to Fidelas Constans. If you are unwilling to defend your own words, and in many cases these quotes have been drawn direct from your own principles, I would infer that you don't really believe in them. If you are unwilling to detail counter evidence, it suggest that you accept that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.26 14:02:00 - [28] Originally by: ChipMo I made no rebuttal. I simply stated that what you had written was not a true reflection of the words you quoted in each case. I am simply asking for you to elaborate why you think it is not a true reflection of the words quoted. Originally by: ChipMo Again with the bullcrap Is exactly the sort of answer that is causing problems. It doesn't illustrate your understanding, and can easily be interpreted as quite offensive. Again, I feel bound to remind you that I have remained entirely civil throughout this discussion and only asked for clarification on certain issues. Clarification that I am still waiting for.
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.26 14:25:00 - [29] Originally by: ChipMo Operation Castrato. Perhaps you would care to enlighten us then as to what this achieved?
Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:01:00 - [30] Originally by: ChipMo You clearly haven't the slightest grasp of what our organisation is about or what we have been doing for the past 6 years. This would be why I am asking questions. What better way to find out than to ask directly - particularly since you think: Originally by: ChipMo There is something seriously wrong with your reasoning and logical abilities. Unfortunately, persistent failure to answer questions that have been asked of you seems to be leading to misunderstandings.

Mirxa's Slave FCON Aerarium Militare Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:59:00 - [31] Originally by: Jade Constantine Since you seem to have missed the full and detailed rebuttle to all your points thus far. I am confused here. The text you quoted above was in fact originally posted before I made my most recent point. Since you seem to have missed that, let me repeat it here: Originally by: Mirxa's Slave My contention that Star Fraction is only interested in Freespace for its own pilots is broadly correct then. You confirm it here: Originally by: The Cosmopolite So then our belief that a third-party has no right to impose particular relationships between other parties on those others, and that independence in relationships with others is vital. So then our long-held belief in freespace, that is the principle that space cannot be 'owned', and that free movement through space and the exploitation of freely-available primary resources in space should be possible for anyone who chooses, anywhere they choose. Why: you admit that you have no intention of forcing people to adopt your worldview. It follows that you simply can't expand Freespace beyond the areas you "own". Again, I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why this is not the case.

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